The works of singular filmmaker Amanda Kramer reside within the realm of theatricality, pastiche, and aesthetic artificiality, the place Brechtian take away commingles with dry wit. Her movies exist in totally realized worlds that evoke the marginally surreal feeling of a half-remembered dream or the reminiscences of a time long gone. Her newest movie, “By Design,” wherein Juliette Lewis swaps our bodies with a chair, is one other prime instance of Kramer’s undeniably distinctive cinematic imaginative and prescient.
After finding out theatre at Emerson Faculty in Boston, Kramer relocated to Los Angeles, the place she labored as a classic clothes purchaser, labored at an underground file label, and created home music. Her debut quick movie “Bark” premiered at Unbelievable Fest in 2016. A couple of extra shorts adopted, after which Kramer made her feature-film debut with “Paris Window,” which explores the harmful relationship between two siblings.
In 2018, her breakthrough function “Ladyworld,” a surreal, female twist on “Lord of the Flies,” premiered at Unbelievable Fest earlier than screening on the BFI London Movie Pageant and the Toronto Worldwide Movie Pageant. In 2022, she launched two function movies that debuted on the Worldwide Movie Pageant Rotterdam; “Please Child Please,” a pastiche of Nineteen Fifties heteronormativity and greaser tradition, which once more featured a standout ensemble forged that included Andrea Riseborough, Harry Melling, Cole Escola, and Demi Moore, and “Give Me Pity!,” a psychedelic musical comedy about an ’80s tv star (Sophie von Haselberg) whose dream of her personal TV particular doesn’t go as deliberate. A low-budget, DIY affair, Kramer made the latter movie in simply 5 days throughout the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic.
“By Design,” which premiered as a part of the NEXT competitors on the 2025 Sundance Movie Pageant, stars Juliette Lewis as a girl named Camille who, whereas window purchasing together with her buddies (Samantha Mathis and Robin Tunney) after brunch, falls in love with an beautiful picket chair. Not in a position to pay for the chair that day, she comes again to the store the subsequent day with all of her financial savings, solely to find {that a} lady named Marta (Alisa Tores), moved by Camille’s want for the chair, bought it as a parting present for her latest ex, a pianist named Olivier (Mamoudou Athie).
Overcome by the lack of the chair, Camille’s spirit leaves her physique and enters the superbly crafted object. Whereas Camille’s physique is rendered a limp, soulless vessel, Olivier and the chair kind their very own distinctive bond, throwing each of their lives into turmoil.
For this month’s Feminine Filmmakers in Focus column, RogerEbert.com spoke to Kramer over Zoom about her distinctive aesthetic strategy to cinema, discovering the correct chair for Juliette Lewis, the ethical core of physique swap movies, and the movies by ladies that encourage her.
This interview has been edited for readability and size.
You’ve listed so many influences for this movie, but it surely’s not filled with homages. It’s extra like a blender. Do you utilize a temper board?
I even have this downside each time I begin a brand new movie, as a result of temper boards and visible decks are anticipated. And what can you place in a temper board or visible deck however different folks’s work? So that you have to be cultivating pictures from movies, work, tv exhibits, and advantageous artwork that you just love. However there’s such an absence in that as a result of what if I need to make one thing nobody has ever seen? What if I would like one thing that’s iconoclastic in an entire new method?
So I work very exhausting with lots of people, my manufacturing designer, my cinematographer, my editor, and a graphic designer typically, to seek out pictures which might be sudden, to seek out references which might be sudden, or they’re like within the caves of our thoughts that we haven’t pulled forth. As a result of nobody wants to have a look at a visible deck with a photograph from “The Shining” in it.
It’s pointless. Why not see a picture we’ve by no means seen, or a picture we’ve seen however don’t bear in mind, or a picture that we’ve seen many instances in a brand new method? So I typically attempt to work that method, as a result of my complete life has been in movie, tv, theatre, and advantageous artwork. How do you even run by means of the Rolodex of your thoughts? It’s pinging throughout my mind continually. In these circumstances, I do know the colours and units from sure motion pictures, the digital camera motion from a film, the lens, and all of it turns into, such as you mentioned, a blender. So there’s no single, pinpointable theft, however I’m a thief.
The movie has a sure wisp of a mid-’80s feeling; you’ve mentioned you had been impressed by early Donna Karan and mall layouts.
I’ve this downside with interval settings, in {that a} particular 12 months doesn’t really feel proper to me. I actually imagine in a pastiche of older eras, as a result of I’m not that taken with modern life. I don’t need folks with cell telephones, and I don’t need scrolling and textual content bubbles, however I by no means need to be like, “It’s the Nineteen Eighties” or “It’s the Nineteen Fifties.” I would like it to really feel prefer it’s a special decade, however on one other planet, or a reminiscence. The reminiscence that we’ve got of the Nineteen Eighties is just not what the Nineteen Eighties had been like. The reminiscence we’ve got of the Nineteen Fifties is just not what it was like. So I consider it as that hypnagogic area of your remembering of a time. Which additionally has to do with the flicks and pictures you see from that point. So, yeah, it’s a really hallucinatory reminiscence of the Nineteen Eighties.
How did you land on this particular Baumann chair? How did it come into your life?
My manufacturing designer, Grace Surnow, is a genius. I don’t really feel unusual throwing that phrase out. While you start speaking together with your manufacturing designer, the dialog will embrace fabrication. And do you need to rent somebody to create one thing that nobody has ever seen earlier than? What’s the timeline? What’s the finances? In a really sensible method, making our personal chair was not off the desk, however so many chairs exist.
Chairs are considerably infamously liked by individuals who obsess over structure and inside design. I do know Brad Pitt collects chairs, so if he does, clearly that’s very significant. However there have been so many chairs to have a look at and so many nice sellers of vintage chairs, so we went complete hog right into a analysis sinkhole. Ought to or not it’s upholstered? Ought to or not it’s wooden? Ought to or not it’s plastic? Ought to it have extra of an irreverent high quality, a humorous chair? Ought to or not it’s one thing that feels very elegant? Ought to or not it’s one thing damaged? These are all questions that you need to ask.
Evidently, you desire a chair that you just really feel like this lady would take a look at and discover to be stunning? With magnificence, you even have to consider what it’s from individual to individual. So we discovered a chair that had completely no power. It was this kind of vibeless, stunning, easy, picket chair, like so easy you’d stroll previous it, however when you didn’t stroll previous it, you’d acknowledge it for such magnificence. It’s plain, however to be so stunning and plain is, I feel, a want.
For a lot of ladies, it’s tough to do. That’s why most of us are so made up. Sure, we don’t belief the plainness. We don’t belief the simplicity. And I feel we noticed the chair and we each mentioned, this might be it, as a result of so many different chairs had been so funky and trendy, and a few of them had been actually attractive, however in that very, very costly, excessive style method, and we simply weren’t fairly certain that suited the character.
Was it character first, then chair, after which Juliette Lewis, or character, Juliette Lewis, chair?
Character, Juliette Lewis, chair.
Have been you considering of Juliette Lewis because the character if you mentioned, that is her chair?
Not Juliette Lewis the lady, however Juliette Lewis as Camille.
Juliette Lewis, the lady, could be a cool chair for certain.
Yeah. Additionally, she is a collector and believes in synergies, which must join together with her instantly. She’s a really gut-based, instinctual lady, which is why she’s such an excellent actress. Along with her enjoying this character, and the way in which we mentioned how she would embody Camille, we thought she would do one thing nearly nebbish, perhaps that’s not fairly the phrase, however that she would do one thing so on its face insecure, making an attempt at safety. Already safe as effectively, however in an entirely particular method. With all of those qualities, we thought she would really like the unfussiness of this specific picket chair.
Was there ever a time in your precise life the place you noticed a bit of furnishings and also you related like that?
I really like shopping for furnishings. I find it irresistible, and it stresses me out zero. I all the time need to discover the perfect furnishings. I want I had a house the dimensions of an previous Mattress Bathtub and Past warehouse I may simply fill with furnishings, however I don’t. I’ve a small Spanish-style bungalow, so I’ve to be very particular when selecting furnishings. So I attempt to find it irresistible as a result of I do know I’ll sit on it or take a look at it on daily basis.
However extra so, my factor is after I’m driving by means of the streets, and I see a discarded piece of furnishings. I’ve usually taken items residence. I particularly did that in faculty. Even when I needed to carry it on my again. This lamp has to return with me. The shabbier one thing is, the extra heart-wrenching it’s, and the extra I need to take it. What does that say about me? We gained’t get into it, however that’s sort of damaged. I really like the historical past of issues. I really like the vibration coming off of one thing. That’s occurred a bunch of instances.
Your movies usually function chameleon-like ensemble casts wherein attention-grabbing character actors really change into the characters. As a 90s child, I liked seeing Samantha Mathis and Robin Tunney on this movie. How do you decide and select who turns into who in your movies?
We had been very fortunate to have them. I’m the identical. I worshiped them as a younger lady, simply worshiped. And thanks for noticing that, and I’m so appreciative of that. I feel that one of many hardest issues about working within the movie trade is that you need to be guided by these lists of names. You need to be guided by IMDb and the starmeter. Brokers and producers, financiers, distributors, they’re all guiding you towards the most important, the brightest, and that’s in finger quotes, as a result of it modifications. It’s such a silly pursuit. It truly is.
While you’re a filmmaker, you need to know who is nice at appearing. That sounds so goofy, but it surely’s true, and that’s not all the time the superstar who’s essentially the most well-known individual; that’s not all the time the individual being hooked onto you by the powers that be. A variety of instances, you need to provoke your personal style, your reminiscence, the actors that you just see and love, and also you make just a little listing. Oh, wouldn’t or not it’s so great to work with Samantha Mathis? You suppose that, and also you maintain on to it, and also you pray you may have a task for her in the future.
Personally, I really like actors. My favourite a part of the job is working with them. So casting is prickly. I don’t like being instructed I want so-and-so to get such-and-such an sum of money. It’s very heartbreaking. So when I’m fortunate sufficient to work with producers and financiers who place confidence in me and place confidence in the forged I put collectively, it’s like a limiteless area the place I can simply say, Ooh, I would like one thing sudden. I do suppose that audiences are altering now, and I’m grateful for that. Like they aren’t solely requiring Julia Roberts and Tom Cruise. They don’t go see motion pictures anymore for capital M, capital S Film Stars. They’re seeing movies for all totally different sorts of causes.
And off the again of somebody like Juliette Lewis, you may have a lot shade and a lot stunning cowl. She offers you with such a doorway. She is aware of that about herself. It’s great. She’s like, if I’m right here, and meaning the remainder of the forged will be Amanda’s alternative and her designation. Then, let’s go get the perfect folks, let’s get the funniest, brightest, coolest, most unusual forged collectively. I’m simply all the time gonna go for it.
With this movie, I additionally particularly needed to work with Mamoudou Athie, a good friend of mine. He’s one out of 1. So that you don’t get a “Mamoudou-like” actor. You both get him, otherwise you don’t get him. I knew I needed him. I went to no one else. I attempt to go by my instincts, and I attempt to discover producing groups who belief these instincts. Once I’m fortunate sufficient to have somebody like Juliette Lewis, then the instincts can take me even additional.
You’ve talked about the 1988 movie “Name Me” as a reference. I really like Patricia Charbonneau. If it had been the ’80s, I would go away everybody for her.
She’s essentially the most final. “Name Me” is such a profound movie in my life. I all the time inform folks to look at it. Folks take a look at me like I’m recommending them to some kind of Showtime after-hours sort erotic factor. However it’s so good, and there are some attractive set items. It’s good and may by no means be remade. But when it ever will get to be remade, it higher be me.
It clearly influences your movie, which includes dance, physique motion, and physique lounging, if you’ll. I feel Juliette Lewis spends half the movie in repose. A variety of Patricia’s appearing in “Name Me” is on the cellphone, lounging, the way in which you do if you’re in your personal area.
I actually suppose we’re shedding quite a lot of cinematic power with out landlines. Folks on the cellphone in motion pictures, and the relationships between the telephones, are extremely profound, and we’ll not actually have these in movies. So I’m unhappy about that, however pleased we’ve got one thing like “Name Me” and lots of different movies about stalkers on the cellphone. There’s an important one referred to as “Lisa,” if anybody is within the temper for that.
So far as our bodies are involved, it’s exhausting as a result of if you come from a theatre background, and there’s no lens, and there’s no shut up, it’s all physique on a regular basis, and the way you block and the place you ship somebody throughout the stage is significant. The digital camera modifications that, and you can begin to make the elite selections. Like, I need to see the eyes. I need to see the fingers. Abruptly, our bodies change into damaged. There are model components. You’ll be able to chop them off. You’ll be able to chop off heads and chop off arms, and make very particular choices about what components of our bodies folks take a look at.
I feel that some of the attention-grabbing issues about being in movie is that out of the blue, our bodies are your mannequins. I didn’t really feel like that within the theatre. I actually didn’t. I truly felt like our bodies had been complete entities hooked up to hearts, minds, and souls. However by means of a lens, you may ask, what does it imply simply to see toes? Filmmakers take into consideration this. They use strolling photographs that present solely toes. Why? What does that do? Persons are motivating physique components on a regular basis for the plot.
So I’m very a lot an individual who thinks about repose. I’m not usually in repose. I want I had been. However if you take a look at nice work and advantageous artwork of men and women in repose, you consider daydreaming. You consider a strong area that the thoughts will be in, as a result of there’s nothing happening with the physique. So I actually appreciated this juxtaposition of ecstatic dance with a very non-moving physique. And in case your thoughts is chickening out and your thoughts is dancing, and your physique isn’t, or your physique is dancing, and your thoughts is regular, these are all issues that I’m fairly taken with. The dance on this movie is kind of stunning. The choreographer’s identify is Sigrid Lauren, and he or she’s wonderful.
And so far as physique swap motion pictures, that’s one other sub-genre I’m obsessive about. Why will we need to be in different folks’s our bodies? What does that present us? I truly suppose we’d all be actually depressing. I feel the distress doesn’t come throughout sufficient in these motion pictures.
There are motion pictures the place folks swap our bodies with different people who find themselves principally the identical as them. What’s that about? There’s one thing so darkish about saying, “I simply don’t need to be me,” however then this individual is just not a lot youthful, a lot wealthier, far more good-looking, enticing, or stunning. This individual is principally me. They’re simply not me.
Is the proposition that the majority of us are strolling round like, “I might similar to a special adjoining second to be residing in”? And if that’s true, that must be a lot scarier and sadder and never performed for comedy. I discover physique swap motion pictures are largely performed for comedy. You realize, the hijinks of “whoa, I’m on curler skates that I’m not alleged to be.”
I feel a physique swap film, that’s a horror film, and I feel persons are beginning to try this now. I really feel very strongly about it as a subgenre. I feel it must be delved into. Possibly I ought to write an essay movie about it, as a result of it’s so chaotic and upsetting.
What are the commonalities? What are the variations? What does it say about society that that is how we predict it’s to be in another person’s sneakers?
They’re morality tales. They’re meant to finish with the characters saying, “Oh, I truly like myself, and I like my life, and I like my physique, and I can’t wait to get again into it.” Nobody ends the movie like how Juliette’s character does in my movie, the place they are saying, “You realize what, I might have loved being a chair for the remainder of my life. It will have been fairly, fairly good. I’m unhappy and I lengthy for it.” As a substitute, all people is pleased to get again to their physique. It is extremely ethical. It has a really Christian ethical to it, the subgenre. I might like to see folks begin inverting that.
You’ve additionally talked about as influences, Joanna Hogg’s movie “Caprice” starring Tilda Swinton and Cynthia Scott’s “Flamenco at 5:15,” each of that are stunning quick movies from the Nineteen Eighties.
These are my two favourite shorts of all time.
What do you like about these two movies?
What I really like about “Caprice” is that I feel on its face, it’s bought attractive manufacturing design, costume design, and sound design. It’s a type of movies the place, if you watch it, you instantly acknowledge a advantageous artist. A favourite quote of mine from Peter Greenaway is: “We may have had a cinema of painters, however we didn’t.” And it’s true, we may have had many extra advantageous artists making motion pictures. We should always, each time we will, combine advantageous artwork into filmmaking.
“Caprice,” to me, is this entire overlap of the whole lot aesthetic. It is sort of a floor-to-ceiling strategy to design with sensible appearing, sensible route, and modifying. It’s an important film and a bit of artwork. I’m all the time going to be simply ethically moved by that greater than anything. I’m not that taken with storytelling as an concept, you realize, like the start, center, and finish of issues. Folks do it effectively, and I’ve liked many motion pictures which might be nice tales to be instructed, however I want one thing extra, and it’s exhausting to explain. I see it after I see “Caprice.”
Equally, the Cynthia Scott movie is, from a documentary and dance-film standpoint, essentially the most touching, elegant, placing, calm, and quiet. However it’s additionally a glimpse right into a sort of dancing that most individuals don’t see or decide to. There are nice ballet movies, in fact, and nice fashionable dance movies. However flamenco is that this erotic and admittedly unique, traditional conventional dance. I really feel so fortunate each time I watch it, as a result of I get to be so near this type of dance that I’ll most likely by no means actually see anybody carry out in actual life.
Are there every other feminine filmmakers whose movies have impressed you or that you just suppose folks ought to hunt down?
The filmmaker I need to discuss most is Vogue Giambri. She is a New York / New Jersey filmmaker. She is a deep weirdo and has completely no want or design to be within the Hollywood mindset. Her movies are like jazz and bebop. She’s a playwright, and he or she engages with the lens prefer it’s ecstasy. It’s a very totally different type from what I’ve. I may by no means pull off. She’s dedicated to this… It’s all intestine. If she needs to chop, she cuts. If it’s in the midst of a sentence, fuck it. It’s a millisecond. If she needs to indicate anyone digging by means of their purse, regardless that it is unnecessary for the scene, she’s gonna do it. And that creates this factor that’s completely its personal creature. Each one in every of her movies is a creature. It truly feels prefer it’s come out of a gap within the floor and simply unfold its unusual limbs and crawled throughout you and humped your face after which disappeared.
I imply, she’s so alive, and her work is so alive. She doesn’t do subtlety. I dance with subtlety on a regular basis. I’m all the time attempting to be extra delicate, whereas additionally being extra intentional and intense. And he or she’s simply, she’s intense the entire method. So if you will get down for that, and you must, her movies are unbelievable. She’s but to make a function, and I’m dying for her, too, and all of her cult followers are dying for her, too. I feel she simply shot one, it’s not out but, however she’s modifying it, and if we’re fortunate, we’ll all get to see it.